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Postby Vosh » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:49 am

Oh, I didn't mean I was against the idea of anyone having discipline and focus. I meant, why do you think that if you don't act on children, according to your own opinions about what is important to study, then the phenomenon of discipline and focus won't happen? Why is coercion ok as long as it's art? Where did you get the idea that children need help with their natural development? Where did you get the idea that you have to do anything other than just stand out of the way, jumping in when asked?

Someone once told me that I should be a school teacher. I told them that standing in front of a room full of non-volunteers would feel really stupid. And it is.
"A new scientific idea does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -Max Planck
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Postby tvelection » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:24 am

Vosh, I see what you mean, I think that's a fair point to make. I was thinking along the same lines in suggesting there is no substitute for enthusiasm. The reason I think you have a valid point is that it probably would not be productive, even a turn-off to force a child who is into sports, for instance, to take piano lessons when they don't want to practice and it does not fascinate them. I think there is an important place for the arts in child development still, but I agree that coersion can cause failure or even rebellion against an intended discipline.

I am not a parent so take my words with a grain of salt. I only know what was effective for me, which may not be effective for others. Each child finds his/her own way, true. While music and arts are a good source of personal development I do however find that some parental guidance, way short of choosing everything for the child can be helpful in this sense ---- people have natural talents that sometimes they don't recognize at first. I suggest arts as a hobby more than a predetermined life pursuit. Also sometimes an adult or a child will pursue an area in which they don't have the least talent because it merely fascinates them. And with those people I say that honesty is a better policy and false encouragement can give a false sense of ability. Or for instance a thin, small, bookish boy might want to join the football team and be the quarterbackwhen it is painfully obvious that the inequality of size and even coordination is lacking. Here we have a volunteer, and yet a parent may want to explain to them that what people want to be good at, and what they actually are good at, might not always be the same. And so it would be up to the parent to decide whether or not to let the kid try-out for the team or not. Perhaps it would be good for them to let the child fail and so not resent being barred, or perhaps the parent can help them avoid a great deal of embarassment and self-loathing, I'm not sure. One thing I do know is that sometimes positive overemphasis ---to tell a child that "they can be anything they want to as long as they work hard" and then falsely compliment their work might cause the child to have an ego where he/she thinks they can do anything they choose better than anyone else when it's obvious that they like anyone else are talented in some pursuits and lack the talent for others. Hopefully (and this paragraph is not at all meant as an argument of what you've said), if they are given the chance to try everything, and with a little guidance, they will find out for themselves what they excel at and what they lack the talent to pursue seriously; it still can be an enjoyable hobby.

I'm not sure how I'd handle a son or daughter who is in high school and wants to be a great realist artist while it is painfully clear that they lack even rudimentary drawing skills. I wonder if a parent should give them full encouragement before the great fall, even permitting the teen's wish to forgo college and be an artist. Sometimes tactful and slight coersion has its place, to deal with children plainly out of concern and tell them that they may be great at many things but in this case to pursue art is to pursue a weakness rather than a strength. I suppose it is hard for parents to watch what their own wisdom sees as a bad choice but you make sense in saying it should be the child's choice, if appropriate (i.e. not dropping out of school), in most cases. Do you think a parent should encourage children in all their (non-destructive) pursuits? Regardless of apparent ability? Or would do you think a parent should be more objective and level with a child. (i.e. "the perspective is a little off in your drawings." Also when one thinks of the parents of Beethoven (minus the abusive element), Mozart, or even Tiger Woods I wonder if those parents weren't partly responsbile for their children's success or how many times Tiger Woods father woke him up at 6am to practice when he didn't want to, did his father do the right thing? or was he too young? Should the ambitious parent put a child in pre-preschool or let the child be until kindergarten? Tough questions. Oh well, parenting seems like a very tough job, in a way computer programming seems complex and for one who is well educated and prepared, yet an effective mother or father has a much harder job.
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Genius within

Postby SidisSiblings » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:10 am

Genius is first born and developed. The famous tabula rasa theory confirms this...The prowess appears at an early age. It does not expires any sooner than musical or artistic talent. Mental derangement is not characteristics of genius. Unrealistic publicity in connection with a youthful person of very superior capacity should be avoided. The feeling of being different or queer should be guarded against. The precocious child it neither to be squelched in his thirst for learning nor to be zealously prodded. You must allow the child to be the guide of his guardian. To develop normally, a youthful prodigy should hare opportunities for wholesome emotional and social contacts with a friendly world.

Psychologist educators are in my opinion the best teacher in the world.

In chess, we have Mark Dvoretski, who is considered by many as the best teacher in the world. WHY? because he's related to Psychology....

FOLLOW THEIR TEACHING :!: :!: :!: :!: KIDS :o :o :o :D :wink: :wink:
The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.....
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Postby Claude » Thu May 17, 2007 1:02 pm

As the father of only girls, I agree with Marilyn such that my surname will hopefully be perpetuated in several families of the next generation. If all of their children also bear their maiden name (my surname) all the better. This works fine unless Marilyn thinks they should change their current surname to my wife's maiden name...or her mother's maiden name...or her grandmother's.
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Neutral

Postby JiMi777 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:00 pm

:|
Last edited by JiMi777 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We must have the courage to revolutionize our thinking, actions, and relations among the nations of the Earth." A. Einstein
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Postby bill » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:08 pm

If you let the children learn instead of trying to teach them they will learn. Children need guidance more than discipline. You cannot teach fish to swim. Nor can you teach a toddler to walk. The majority of children learn better in an undisciplined manner. Nature is undisciplined. I always said "IT IS BETTER TO LEARN ONE THING THAN TO NOT LEARN TWO" All children do not want to learn all things.

Most systems of current learning interfere with a child's natural curiosity. The vast majority of school children do not get enough exercise either.
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Postby bill » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:15 pm

tvelection wrote:I'm not sure how I'd handle a son or daughter who is in high school and wants to be a great realist artist while it is painfully clear that they lack even rudimentary drawing skills.


Basic or rudimentary drawing skills can easily be learned by anyone. Get the book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards. If you can sign your name you have the skill to draw. The book can turn anyone (who does all the exercises) into an artist.
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Postby SevenSigma » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:00 am

I think it's great that you're addressing the issue of how to help kids get a decent education. There are many of us however who did not make it through the system for various reasons. School didn't suit, doing college or university courses as a mature student didn't suit, and I feel that I have been forced into self-education as a last resort. Unfortunately, this method is seldom afforded any credit by academia or industry.

There is a need for some kind of intervention for adults who have fallen through the net. People of low ability have all sorts of support laid on for them; no consideration is given to those who dropped out or didn't make it for reasons other than low IQ. The consensus attitude in society tends to be: "There's nothing wrong with you, so it serves you right. Sort it out yourself."

There is a certain injustice in the fact that had I displayed the ability of a 6yo when I was 15, the school and the local educational psychology service would have fallen over themselves to provide appropriate help and a modified curriculum. Because I was quite the opposite, and tested on the 15yo level when I was 6, the school didn't care and had me "learn" to read and count along with all the other kiddies of the same age. Was it any wonder I didn't want to be there and kept trying to make friends with adults and senior school age kids instead?

Statistical oddities like us need a place in life to go, and no, it shouldn't be typing documents or selling car insurance.
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Postby robert 46 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:51 pm

SevenSigma wrote:I think it's great that you're addressing the issue of how to help kids get a decent education. There are many of us however who did not make it through the system for various reasons. School didn't suit, doing college or university courses as a mature student didn't suit, and I feel that I have been forced into self-education as a last resort.

Very true. The free spirit does not take well to a pigeon coop. I felt the same way, and so, apparently, did Marilyn.
Unfortunately, this method is seldom afforded any credit by academia or industry.

Academia and industry are looking for drudges who will put in the hours without complaint.
There is a need for some kind of intervention for adults who have fallen through the net.

The last thing the masses want to see happen is any advancement of the intelligentsia.
People of low ability have all sorts of support laid on for them;

It is the policy of mediocrity above all else.
...no consideration is given to those who dropped out or didn't make it for reasons other than low IQ. The consensus attitude in society tends to be: "There's nothing wrong with you, so it serves you right. Sort it out yourself."

What is wrong is not with you, but with society.
There is a certain injustice in the fact that had I displayed the ability of a 6yo when I was 15, the school and the local educational psychology service would have fallen over themselves to provide appropriate help and a modified curriculum. Because I was quite the opposite, and tested on the 15yo level when I was 6, the school didn't care and had me "learn" to read and count along with all the other kiddies of the same age.

This implies a childhood I.Q. of 250, but I doubt it has any significance because a typical adult intelligence was presumed to fully develop by the age of 15, and it is how much it progresses *after* that which is important.
Was it any wonder I didn't want to be there and kept trying to make friends with adults and senior school age kids instead?

Not in the least. As a teenager I found myself more distanced over time from those in my cohort.
Statistical oddities like us need a place in life to go, and no, it shouldn't be typing documents or selling car insurance.

It is the nature of the human animal to squander resources both physical and human.

I was not advanced in school, but observant. Although I couldn't at the time actually understand and verbalize what was wrong, because I didn't have perspective, it was something I could sense and feel. The awareness that human society is basically wrong in all its aspects has stayed with me ever since.

***** 2011-08-22

The reason people tend not to understand this is because they are immersed in society from birth, similar to a fish being immersed in the ocean. The water is everywhere around the fish, and society is everywhere around the person.

The fish takes the resistance of water to motion and its benefit to propulsion as the natural state of its world. The fish "flies" through the water, but has neutral buoyancy, so all it requires is propulsion, not lift; but the water offers significant resistance to motion. The bird flies through the air, but does not have neutral buoyancy in the air, so requires both propulsion and lift to remain aloft; the air offers little resistance to motion, but speed is required to maintain lift. Yet the flying fish, which leaps out of the water and glides for as far as 1300 feet, is a creature of two worlds- not that the flying fish has the intellect to understand this. And the cormorant, a diving bird, is also a creature of two worlds.

A person can only understand the artificiality of society by distancing oneself from it and reflecting upon it. This means drawing back from employment, government, religion, associations and relationships. It is something like the flying fish who leaps out of the ocean and looks down upon it to see how confining the water actually is.

Read Thoreau for this kind of perspective.

Doing this you will discover that all humanity ever does is recommend itself to nature for extinction; and there is no covenant with nature. Therefore it is sensible to learn what nature is; what constraints nature places on the world; and to live within those constraints. However, humanity has no intention of doing this.

When I was in First grade, the class was put into the Christmas pageant. My part was to hold a candle and speak the nine-word line, "I light this candle for Mary, mother of Jesus." I think I was standing in the right place and said my line in the right order with the child before me; not necessarily loud enough to carry back to the balcony, but to the first few rows maybe. We did not actually light candles because the adults weren't about to trust five-year-olds with matches on stage, and it would have been awkward to accomplish without setting one's costume on fire. One may wonder why I was given this line, but any doubt is dispelled by learning that my mother's name is Mary. So, I suppose they thought it cute that I should say this line. That was the first, last, and only involvement with Dramatics I have ever had because it was entirely sufficient, and perhaps excessive. It wasn't until many decades later when I read the Old and New Testaments cover to cover under less than ideal circumstances that I discovered they had given me the wrong nine-word line to speak: it should have been, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" because these are the only words in the N.T. which one must understand in order to put the N.T. in its proper perspective. The New Testament is the greatest condemnation of the God delusion ever written. Yet not only do few people recognize this, but the majority have been brainwashed to think it the exact opposite: an affirmation of God. To compromise in the dialectic: the N.T. is the greatest affirmation of the God delusion ever written. Why humanity must indulge a belief in gods, a God, or various other extraterrestrial visitors when nature is all about them clearly to be seen is one of the great puzzlements until one recognizes that humanity comprises the stupidest animal in the entire known universe.

Thoreau went into the White Mountains of New Hampshire, and so have I. Thoreau climbed Mt. Katahdin in Maine, and so have I. Having seen nature from the top of mountains, I gained perspective. But all I ever gained the few times I looked out of a skyscraper window was disorientation. Even the view from a second story dorm window was bleak.

***** 2011-08-24

The story of Jesus is not difficult to understand if one can wade through the morass of embellishments. The charismatic cult leader enters Jerusalem riding on a donkey with throngs of supporters, but when he goes up against the authorities he is only one against the powerful. His followers abandon him; Jesus is scourged, a crown of thorns put on his head, compelled to drag the implement of his torture to the top of a hill, nailed on the cross, elevated in the sun, shot with arrows, taunted with vinegar for parched lips. Where is God, the miracle maker, during all this?- absent. However, when life becomes unsustainable, nature mercifully puts an end to it. The simple message is: death ends all suffering. This was in contrast to the Greek myth of Prometheus. [1] The message is so simple that there was no purpose in making a religion out of it.

Who was it that ironically swallowed the God delusion hook, line and sinker?- Jesus, the fisherman (fisher of men): who discovered his mistake with his lament. And what was his salvation?- nature. So, the New Testament story is the condemnation of God, and the affirmation of nature. Easy enough to understand for those who are not gullible simpletons.

[1] There is a similarity with the story of Pythagoras, besieged and abandoned, and Socrates, condemned by the Athenian council.

***** 2011-09-12

Book of Ecclesiastes (in modern English)

1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

1:2 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

1:3 What profit has a man of all his labor which he takes under the sun?

1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but the earth abides forever.

1:5 The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to its place where it arose.

1:6 The wind goes toward the south, and turns about to the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits.

1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

1:8 All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

1:9 The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

1:10 Is there anything whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It has been already of old time, which was before us.

1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

1:12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail God has given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

1:16 I communed with my own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yes, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.

1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.

1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow.


2:1 I said in my heart, Go now, I will prove you with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity.

2:2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What does it?

2:3 I sought in my heart to give myself to wine, yet acquainting my heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what it was that is good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

2:4 I made great works; I built houses; I planted vineyards:

2:5 I made gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits:

2:6 I made pools of water, to water therewith the wood that brings forth trees:

2:7 I got servants and maidens, and had servants born in my house; also I had great possessions of great and small cattle above all that were in Jerusalem before me:

2:8 I gathered also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I got men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.

2:9 So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me.

2:10 And whatsoever my eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labor: and this was my portion of all my labor.

2:11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labor that I had labored to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

2:12 And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that comes after the king? Even that which has been already done.

2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excels folly, as far as light excels darkness.

2:14 The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walks in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happens to them all.

2:15 Then said I in my heart, As it happenes to the fool, so it happenes even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.

2:16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool forever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dies the wise man? As the fool.

2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

2:18 Yes, I hated all my labor which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me.

2:19 And who knows whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? Yet he shall have rule over all my labor wherein I have labored, and wherein I have shown myself wise under the sun. This is also vanity.

2:20 Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labor which I took under the sun.

2:21 For there is a man whose labor is in wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that has not labored therein he shall leave it for his portion. This also is vanity and a great evil.

2:22 For what has man of all his labor, and of the vexation of his heart, wherein he has labored under the sun?

2:23 For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yes, his heart takes not rest in the night. This is also vanity.

2:24 There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labor. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God.

2:25 For who can eat, or who else can hasten hereto, more than I?

2:26 For God gives to a man that is good in his sight: wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he gives travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.


3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

3:9 What profit has he that works in that wherein he labors?

3:10 I have seen the travail, which God has given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

3:11 He has made everything beautiful in his time: also he has set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labor, it is the gift of God.

3:14 I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.

3:15 That which has been is now; and that which is to be has already been; and God requires that which is past.

3:16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

3:17 I said in my heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

3:18 I said in my heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

3:19 For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

3:20 All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

3:21 Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward to the earth?

3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?


4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

4:2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.

4:3 Yes, better is he than both they, which has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

4:4 Again, I considered all travail, and every right work, that for this a man is envied of his neighbour. This is also vanity and vexation of spirit.

4:5 The fool folds his hands together, and eats his own flesh.

4:6 Better is a handful with quietness, than both the hands full with travail and vexation of spirit.

4:7 Then I returned, and I saw vanity under the sun.

4:8 There is one alone, and there is not a second; yes, he has neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labor; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither says he, For whom do I labor, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yes, it is a sore travail.

4:9 Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labor.

4:10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falls; for he has not another to help him up.

4:11 Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?

4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.

4:14 For out of prison he comes to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becomes poor.

4:15 I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead.

4:16 There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them: they also that come after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit.


5:1 Watch your step when you go to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

5:2 Be not rash with your mouth, and let not your heart be hasty to utter anything before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let your words be few.

5:3 For a dream comes through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

5:4 When you vow a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he has no pleasure in fools: pay that which you have vowed.

5:5 Better is it that you should not vow, than that you should vow and not pay.

5:6 Suffer not your mouth to cause your flesh to sin; neither say you before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at your voice, and destroy the work of your hands?

5:7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also diverse vanities: but fear you God.

5:8 If you see the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regards; and there be higher than they.

5:9 Moreover the profit of the earth is for all: the king himself is served by the field.

5:10 He that loves silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loves abundance with increase: this is also vanity.

5:11 When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good is there to the owners thereof, saving the seeing of them with their eyes?

5:12 The sleep of a laboring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.

5:13 There is a sore evil which I have seen under the sun, namely, riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.

5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begets a son, and there is nothing in his hand.

5:15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labor, which he may carry away in his hand.

5:16 And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit has he that has labored for the wind?

5:17 All his days also he eats in darkness, and he has much sorrow and wrath with his sickness.

5:18 Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for it is his portion.

5:19 Every man also to whom God has given riches and wealth, and has given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labor; this is the gift of God.

5:20 For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answers him in the joy of his heart.


6:1 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, and it is common among men:

6:2 A man to whom God has given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wants nothing for his soul of all that he desires, yet God gives him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eats it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease.

6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

6:4 For he comes in with vanity, and departs in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.

6:5 Moreover he has not seen the sun, nor known anything: this has more rest than the other.

6:6 Yes, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet he has seen no good: do not all go to one place?

6:7 All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

6:8 For what has the wise more than the fool? What has the poor, that knows to walk before the living?

6:9 Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of the desire: this is also vanity and vexation of spirit.

6:10 That which has been is named already, and it is known that it is man: neither may he contend with him that is mightier than he.

6:11 Seeing there are many things that increase vanity, what is man the better?

6:12 For who knows what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spends as a shadow? For who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?


7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

7:2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

7:3 Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better.

7:4 The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

7:5 It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools.

7:6 For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool: this also is vanity.

7:7 Surely oppression makes a wise man mad; and a gift destroys the heart.

7:8 Better is the end of a thing than its beginning: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.

7:9 Be not hasty in your spirit to be angry: for anger rests in the bosom of fools.

7:10 Say you not, What is the cause that the former days were better than these?, for you do not enquire wisely concerning this.

7:11 Wisdom is good with an inheritance: and by it there is profit to them that see the sun.

7:12 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom gives life to them that have it.

7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he has made crooked?

7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also has set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

7:15 All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just man that perishes in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness.

7:16 Be not righteous overmuch; neither make yourself overwise: why should you destroy yourself?

7:17 Be not overmuch wicked, neither be you foolish: why should you die before your time?

7:18 It is good that you should take hold of this; yes, also from this withdraw not your hand: for he that fears God shall come forth of them all.

7:19 Wisdom strengthens the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city.

7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and sins not.

7:21 Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest you hear your servant curse you:

7:22 For oftentimes also your own heart knows that you yourself likewise has cursed others.

7:23 All this have I proved by wisdom: I said, I will be wise; but it was far from me.

7:24 That which is far off, and exceedingly deep, who can find it out?

7:25 I applied my heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:

7:26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: who pleases God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

7:27 Behold, this I have found, says the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:

7:28 Which yet my soul seeks, but I find not: one man among a thousand I have found; but a woman among all those I have not found.

7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God has made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


8:1 Who is as the wise man? And who knows the interpretation of a thing? A man's wisdom makes his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed.

8:2 I counsel you to keep the king's commandment, and that in regard of the oath of God.

8:3 Be not hasty to go out of his sight: stand not in an evil thing; for he does whatsoever pleases him.

8:4 Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say to him, What do you?

8:5 Who keeps the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerns both time and judgment.

8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.

8:7 For he knows not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?

8:8 There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

8:9 All this I have seen, and applied my heart to every work that is done under the sun: there is a time where one man rules over another to his own hurt.

8:10 And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done: this is also vanity.

8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

8:12 Though a sinner do evil a hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

8:13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he fears not before God.

8:14 There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, to whom it happens according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happens according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity.

8:15 Then I commended mirth, because a man has no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry: for that shall abide with him of his labor the days of his life, which God gives him under the sun.

8:16 When I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to see the business that is done upon the earth: (for also there is that neither day nor night sees sleep with his eyes:)

8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yes farther; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.


9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knows either love or hatred by all that is before them.

9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrifices, and to him that sacrifices not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that swears, as he that fears an oath.

9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yes, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.

9:7 Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God now accepts your works.

9:8 Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment.

9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity: for that is your portion in this life, and in your labor which you take under the sun.

9:10 Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither you go.

9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happens to them all.

9:12 For man also knows not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falls suddenly upon them.

9:13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great to me:

9:14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it:

9:15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man.

9:16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.

9:17 The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that rules among fools.

9:18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroys much good.


10:1 Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking odor: so does a little folly in him that is in reputation for wisdom and honor.

10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

10:3 Yes also, when he that is a fool walks by the way, his wisdom fails him, and he says to every one that he is a fool.

10:4 If the spirit of the ruler rise up against you, leave not your place; for yielding pacifies great offenses.

10:5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceeds from the ruler:

10:6 Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place.

10:7 I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth.

10:8 He that digs a pit shall fall into it; and whoever breaks a hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

10:9 Whoever removes stones shall be hurt thereby; and he that chops wood shall be endangered thereby.

10:10 If the iron be blunt, and he not whet the edge, then he must put to more strength: but wisdom is profitable to direct.

10:11 Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.

10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.

10:13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.

10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?

10:15 The labor of the foolish wearies every one of them, because he knows not how to go to the city.

10:16 Woe to you, O land, when your king is a child, and your princes eat in the morning!

10:17 Blessed are you, O land, when your king is the son of nobles, and your princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!

10:18 By much slothfulness the building decays; and through idleness of the hands the house drops through.

10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes merry: but money answers all things.

10:20 Curse not the king, no not even in your thought; and curse not the rich in your bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which has wings shall tell the matter.


11:1 Cast your bread upon the waters: for you shall find it after many days.

11:2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for you know not what evil shall be upon the earth.

11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it shall be.

11:4 He that observes the wind shall not sow; and he that regards the clouds shall not reap.

11:5 As you know not what the way is of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so you know not the works of God who makes all.

11:6 In the morning sow your seed, and in the evening withhold not your hand: for you know not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.

11:7 Truly the light is sweet, and a pleasant thing it is for the eyes to behold the sun:

11:8 But if a man live many years, and rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that comes is vanity.

11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in your youth; and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth, and walk in the ways of your heart, and in the sight of your eyes: but know you, that for all these things God will bring you into judgment.

11:10 Therefore remove sorrow from your heart, and put away evil from your flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity.


12:1 Remember now your Creator in the days of your youth, while the evil days come not, nor the hours draw nigh, when you shall say, I have no pleasure in them;

12:2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

12:3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

12:4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of music shall be brought low;

12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goes to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

12:7 Then the dust shall return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

12:8 Vanity of vanities, says the preacher; all is vanity.

12:9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yes, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

*****

The way to read the Bible to find out if it makes any sense is this: everywhere you find the word "God" substitute the word "nature". Then reread the passage to discover whether it seems sensible in this new context. If it doesn't then the ancient author was confused about the relationship between humanity and the world. But if it does make sense then the author likely did have insight into the relationship of humanity to the world. Find the Bible online, copy to your computer, then do a find-and-replace in your word processor.

Note in Ecclesiastes that the author advises "Fear God". This becomes "Fear nature". Does this make sense? The ancients were living under very different conditions from the advanced nations today: they had little understanding of nature because science had not yet been invented, and yet they lived close to nature. So it is reasonable to assume that they would be afraid of the unknown, and of an uncertain future controlled largely by the caprice [2] of nature. Today we have a much greater understanding of nature, but we live distantly from nature. The worst example is the city: asphalt streets, concrete sidewalks, and tall buildings. There is not much of nature to see other than the sky and clouds. Even at night the stars are hardly visible due to haze and light pollution.

However, because we do not view our existence as controlled [2] by nature we have lost the fear of nature. This is a big mistake. Nature is the most powerful force in the universe. Something which can exterminate [2] all the dinosaurs, after 180 million years of existence, with an object as small as a comet is a power to be respected.

Therefore these ancient religions based on ignorance and superstition serve no continuing purpose in the modern world. It is imperative that humanity gain a proper respect, even including reverence, for nature because nature is all that stands [2] between us and extinction.

[2] Pathetic Fallacy: A fallacy of reason in suggesting that nonhuman phenomena act from human feelings, as suggested by the word "pathetic" from the Greek pathos; a literary device wherein something nonhuman found in nature-- a beast, plant, stream, natural force, etc.-- performs as though from human feeling or motivation. -Wikipedia

The God delusion is entirely a consequence of the pathetic fallacy. It is easy to fall into, as you can see above. Although nature should not be personified, it is extremely risky for humanity to blindly interfere with the "balance of nature".

***** 2011-10-26

Ecclesiastes says, "The day of death is better than the day of one's birth." Why? Because on the day of birth we do not know what we are getting into, but on the day of death we know what we are getting out of. They don't explain this in children's Bible study class. [3]

[3] Actually, they didn't even mention Ecclesiastes in the Bible class I was compelled to take: the adults were too preoccupied with Noah weathering the flood, and the parting of the waves for Moses.

***** 2011-11-10

Whereas "God" can be replaced with "nature" to produce a more meaningful translation, it is also preferable to replace "vanity" with "futility".

"Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Becomes:

"Futility of futilities, says the Preacher, futility of futilities; all is futility." [4]

Therein describes the human condition, known to the ancients over three thousand years ago.

[4] "Futility" is the translation used in the New Jerusalem Bible:
"Sheer futility, Qoheleth says. Sheer futility: everything is futile!"

***** 2012-06-18

"The word [Vanitas] is Latin, meaning "emptiness" and loosely translated corresponds to the meaninglessness of earthly life and the transient nature of vanity. Ecclesiastes 1:2 from the Bible is often quoted in conjunction with this term. The Vulgate (Latin translation of the Bible) renders the verse as Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas. The verse is translated as Vanity of vanities; all is vanity by the King James Version of the Bible, and Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless by the New International Version of the Bible." -Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanitas
robert 46
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