End of the world

Discuss Marilyn's column in PARADE magazine.

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Postby robert 46 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:36 am

JO 753 wrote:So, beyond basic survival, everything everybody's doing besides scientific research, teaching andor learning science or any subject that will help support such activities or creating technology that will help scientific research is a waste of time.

Your interpretation.
"Not to be found"?

Sounds like you want to have a little anonymity!

No, it sounds more like the forums have aged to the point of deleting old topics.
Like you are afraid something you have said elsewhere may not hold up to scrutiny here. Or or or.... many possibilities, mostly unfavorable.

Your apparent intelligence is declining daily with such idle speculations.

I tried to explain to you the foolishness of Nooalf: phonetic spelling would lead to chaos. There have to be some standards for a language, and spelling is one of them. The Dvorak keyboard may be faster to type on than the Qwerty, but computers still come supplied with the latter, not the former.
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Postby JO 753 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:08 am

My interpretation. That's my point.

You nit pik Marilyn about not writing everything to the nth degree of precision, so by that standard you have failed.

You are engaging in extreem self delusion by calling Nooalf foolish. A problem with being very smart is that you can figure out excuses for just about anything and nobody will be able to convince you otherwise.

Our goofball spelling programs children to accept nonsense and they grow up to be gullible chumps. Why do you think religion, superstition, republicans, most car repair joints, the financial sector and con men in general are florishing in this century in America?

It's because we are indoctrinated in our most crucial formative years with the overt message that things do not have to make sense. Authority will tell us what is correct, so don't think, just listen and obey.
Tired uv Trump yet? I am:
http://www.7532020.com
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Postby robert 46 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:07 pm

JO 753 wrote:You are engaging in extreem self delusion by calling Nooalf foolish.

[1]

I'm surprised you didn't add a link to your website. So, how well is the project going [2]? They haven't even been able to get the metric system adopted in the US [3]. Do you think Webster is going to change the dictionary to your whims? Be realistic.
A problem with being very smart is that you can figure out excuses for just about anything and nobody will be able to convince you otherwise.

An advantage of being very smart is seeing through smokescreens.
Our goofball spelling programs children to accept nonsense and they grow up to be gullible chumps. Why do you think religion, superstition, republicans, most car repair joints, the financial sector and con men in general are florishing in this century in America?

Because people are generally none-too-bright. I rather doubt it has anything to do with how the English language is spelled.
It's because we are indoctrinated in our most crucial formative years with the overt message that things do not have to make sense. Authority will tell us what is correct, so don't think, just listen and obey.

I agree with your observation. However, English has evolved and is evolving, and cannot be changed except by this slow process.

[1] In "extreme" the "e" on the end lengthens the preceding ( not "preceeding") vowel.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_spelling_reform

[3] "Metrication is the process of introducing the International System of Units (SI or Système International), a metric system of measurement, to replace the historical or customary units of measurement of a country or region. The United States does not officially use or mandate a metric system of units, making it one of only three countries, along with Burma (Myanmar) and Liberia, that have not adopted the SI as their official system." -Wikipedia
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Postby JO 753 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:43 am

robert 46 wrote:I'm surprised you didn't add a link to your website.


You didn't notice it in my signature line.

So, how well is the project going?


Progressing glacially.

They haven't even been able to get the metric system adopted in the US.


The comparison doesn't work. There isn't much practical need to convert miles to feet, tons to pounds, etc. So the British system works as well as metric most of the time. I use both, but am more used to British.

Do you think Webster is going to change the dictionary to your whims?


I tried to persuade several dictionary publishers to use Nooalf as the pronunciation key about 10 years ago. I'm not much of a salesman and lojik has little effect on humans.

Be realistic.


That's what keeps 99.9999% of people out of the history books.

An advantage of being very smart is seeing through smokescreens.


Except your own. Who was it who said "the smartest people have the most persuasive demons"?

Because people are generally none-to-bright. I rather doubt is has anything to do with how the English language is spelled.


No argument about people being dumb, and there are certainly going to be a good percentage of gullible idiots in places where the native language has a decent spelling system. But you have to admit that it at least does not help a nacent lojik system to be immersed in a jumble of contradictions, bogus rules with endless exceptions, pointless inefficiency and just plain weirdness. How does it seem to the 5 year olds when the teacher explains that 2 + 2 = 4 and we spell 'choir' instead of KWiR? A lojikl thought would be 'if you don't have to make sense, then I don't either!'

English has evolved and is evolving, and cannot be changed except by this slow process.


The language, yes. Not the spelling. It got fossilized, and hasn't changed appreciably in hundreds of years. Any chowderhead can coin a new word or phrase and it will be in the dictionary if it gets popular for long enough. but try to change the spelling of 'enough' to 'enuf' and you will be run out of town like a common pigmy.

A revolution is needed.

In "extreme" the "e" on the end lengthens the preceding ( not "preceeding") vowel.


Like that's an example of some sort of system or dependable consistency?
What about 'sleeve'?

The standard Nooalf debunk of all examples presented as evidence of a system is:

If 'extreme' spells 'eKSTREM', how would you spell 'exTREMe'? Your answer may be 'ethtreemeh', then I ask, how would you spell 'eTHTREEMeH' and coud keep doing that indefinitely. Or you may attempt to dodge the question with 'I don't need to since there is no such word'. Face it. There is no system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_spelling_reform


Check out the talk page for the article.
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Postby robert 46 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:17 am

"Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win." -Jonathan Kozol
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Postby JO 753 » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:23 pm

I have.
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Postby robert 46 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:11 am

Alright, consider "choir": you would pronounce it like "wire"- "kwire". But this seems like laxity to me, and I would pronounce it like "prior". "Preaching to the choir." Admittedly, this reverses the sound of the vowels, so it should be spelled "quior", "Preaching to the quior". But this does not mean that "choir" in Medieval times was not pronounced like it is spelled. So the spelling may not have kept up with the change in pronunciation. Words like "tough", "though", "through" and "aghast" may have had gutteral sounds which have been lost to a refined English, whereas "argh" hasn't, particularly when spoken by a salty-dog pirate, or Charlie Brown in exasperation.

Why has spelling remained the same while the pronunciation has changed? Because spelling is not meant to preserve the sound of a word, but rather the abstract meaning. Written words are symbols used to preserve meaning. How the words are pronounced is of secondary concern. A written sentence is not meant to convey how the sentence should be spoken, but what the sentence means. Sentences can be spoken in many ways with different intonation/inflection which conveys different meaning. The written language must accomodate this in a different way because one cannot have different spellings of the same word to convey intonation- it would be uneconomical. The only place where phonetic spelling works is to convey spoken dialect: see Mark Twain and other writers.

"Time flies like an arrow" has the same appearance as "Fruit flies like an apple", but very different meaning because "flies" and "like" are used as different parts of speech (verb/noun; preposition/verb); "time" is a noun, but "fruit" is an adjective. A single word can be used as a different part of speech, which is determined by context. Different words are not required- again, from parsimony.

Consider: "Three wives are two too many." It has a similar sound to "Three wives are tutu many" ("tutu" is spoken faster than "two too"), but one does not use the latter because it does not convey the intended meaning.

"A harem is too, too many wives." Here "too, too" is used to express a degree of disapproval not conveyed by "A harem is too many wives." Thus the difference in "to" (preposition), "too" (adverb), "two" (adjective) which cannot be replaced by "tu". We cannot accept "Three wives are tu tu many", or "A harem is tu, tu many wives".

You mention "sleeve". Here the ending "e" is not meant to lengthen the preceding vowel from "sleev" to "sleeev", but reflects the convention that words in English do not end in "v": "retrieve", "active", "sieve".

You are correct that English is not a systematic language: it grows like Topsy; although it does have loose rules, but with lots of exceptions. Computer languages are designed, but for a purpose far from being spoken; although I preferred Pascal as more like English than "C". Computer languages have no loose rules- they are entirely formal.

So, the written language is intended to preserve meaning, not to convey sound. This iz why words are often not spelled phonetically, and the pressure iz to preserve the spelling of a word to preserve the symbol associated with an abstraction. Although I sympathize with your exasperation, your Nooalf project is constrained to languish out of necessity.
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Postby JO 753 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:49 pm

Your entire post amounts to nothing but attempted justification. If you boil it down to 'spelling preserves meaning', it is easily dismissed through example or logic.

A big percentage of words have 2 or more meanings with the same spelling. Just a random example from the dictionary:

bluff 1. To decieve by putting on a bold front. 2. To frighten with empty threats. 3. A steep headland or bank. 4. A clump of trees on a prairie. 5. Rough and hearty in manner. 6. Having a broad, steep appearance.
(abbreviated from my 1968 Funk & Wagnall's Standard Encyclopedic Dictionary)

A different definition is a different word.

Worse, there are words that have the same spelling with different pronunciations!

By logic:

Claiming that spelling preserves meaning is the same as postulating that: A = B and B = C, but if A is altered to = C it will cause A and C to not equal B anymore. ( A=pronounciation. B=meaning. C=spelling ).

Context is a major component of meaning. Spelling is usually of little importance and deviations from 'correct' spelling are virtually meaningless. Sentences contrived to confuse only demonstrate the problem with a bloated and disorganized vocabulary.

It would be cool if you could come up with a new argument. Here's a whole section on it: http://www.nooalf.com/aNTiREFORMDEBUNK.html

It's been quite a while since I updated it.

P.S. I noticed that you had some spelling mistakes in earlier posts. Glad to see I'm starting to have an influence on you!
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Postby robert 46 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:11 pm

I have responded to JO 753 in the Spelling ability topic, page 2.
http://www.marilynvossavant.com/forum/v ... 1&start=15
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Postby JO 753 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:22 pm

I am a lot smarter than Marilyn, and it has taken her some years to figure this out after considerable denial.


The Spelling Ability debate doesn't help your claim.

I hope that in the future people will be as concerned about what they put in their heads as in their hair. Nooalf is for them.
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Postby robert 46 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:48 am

JO 753 wrote:
I am a lot smarter than Marilyn, and it has taken her some years to figure this out after considerable denial.

The Spelling Ability debate doesn't help your claim.

I'll let Marilyn evaluate the relative merits of the sides in the Spelling Ability debate.
I hope that in the future people will be as concerned about what they put in their heads as in their hair. Nooalf is for them.

Other supporters of Nooalf are welcome to comment- preferably at the Spelling ability topic.
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